Kodsnack 716 - Dubious lifestyle decisions, with James Smith

The only thing that will make it work is people. So if people want to get involved and help us build a slightly less tech-bro future, then you know where to find us. Join Matrix.

Welcome to CodeSnack, James. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. It's good to be here. Yeah, yeah. It's a pleasure. Well, we. I guess I caught some of your messages on Mastodon, and that's how we got into this.

But maybe we should start with something brief about who are you, what do you do? I am, my name's James Smith. I'm a software developer in the UK. I've been working on, well, working on software generally for 30 years, something like that, across various things, working on sort of web development applications, things like that, for becoming up 20, and have worked as, you know, technical architects, various things like that, various different levels from code up to, you know, high level design stuff.

Largely, luckily for me, in the kind of tech for good type sector. So I've worked on things like climate projects. I've worked on public sector software, all sorts of things like that.

Open data was a big part of it a few years ago. So I'm a huge fan of open source, open standards, being able to use all of our collective intelligence together to make better things. These days I'm lucky enough to be working on my own open source project full time, which is great, thanks to some funding from a European project called Next Generation Internet, NGO Zero, which is very, very cool.

It supports loads of open source projects, loads of stuff that everyone will know. It supports the developers to work on things, which is great. So I'm lucky enough to be getting some support from them at the moment, which is amazing.

Pretty cool, yeah. And yeah, the reason or the excuse, I guess, for having this little recording is that you're also involved in, but is it proper to call it simply a fork of Ruby on Rails? Yeah, yeah.

I've made some dubious lifestyle decisions. I would say you're not the only one in that storyline to make some dubious decisions. Yeah. Yes, at that moment, yeah.

So the context of us talking is because of a project that's getting off the ground, currently codenamed Amigo. That is the temporary name. We still haven't got a permanent one yet.

Okay. Which is a fork of Ruby on Rails. That is the idea. It's grown out of various bits of history. A number of people see a need for a fork of Rails. There was an attempt last year to get the Rails core team to make some changes.

That was like throwing, you know, things into a black hole. Nothing happened. So a bit of renewed energy on that in the last few weeks. And actually, we now have a small team coming together to actually do it, which is interesting and daunting and...

Yeah. All the things that people will say about it being really hard and a bad idea and probably won't work. All that's true. Absolutely. Yeah. I totally get it.

And I'd much rather be doing other things because this I am not getting paid to do. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Fun times. Yeah, but I feel like it started really quick.

I will put in show notes, links in the show notes for people so they can read up on all the background why this is needed. I think many people probably have like a vague idea, but yeah, we'll put in background material. A surprising number of people have managed to not know why and seem to be very good at really trying really hard to not know why as well.

Oh, okay. It's like active curiosity. That's a big part of that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, to summarize very briefly because I don't want it to be, it's not about...

This is the stimulus for the thing, but it's not just about that. No. You know, we want it to be its own thing. Yeah. The figurehead of Ruby on Rails, the creator of it in the first place, David Hauman Hanson, has built, technically built something really, really cool.

Right, I've been a Rails developer since 1.1. Oh, wow. And I still, it's still the tool that I will pick up when I want to build something. Including my current project.

So I'm still actively using Rails every day. It's stable and it's boring and all the good things that technology should be when you actually want to do stuff, right? So that's a good thing.

And the, you know, it was always about being a very opinionated framework and things like that. And I'm a huge fan of decisions that don't make a... Well, the most important thing about a decision is normally that it's made, not necessarily what the answer is.

That's a great point. Yes, absolutely. Because that lets you get on. So I'm fine. I've done all the wars over style and over design and things like that. I've done all of that.

And being able to say, okay, right, here's a system. I can work in that. That seems reasonable. And now I can just get on. It's a great thing. And Rails as well, it revolutionized, I think, so many things.

You know, the whole platform as a service thing came out of the Rails world. The whole sort of packaging, the modern packaging ecosystem came out of that. Gems and stuff.

Yeah. With, you know, every other language has been catching up. The, you know, deployment, all the sort of, you know, all that good stuff around continuous integration.

All of that was really, really taken to heart in the Rails world. And the Ruby world more generally. But it was, you know, it did an incredible amount of good. And the documentation is amazing.

You know, the Rails guides, the videos from back in the day of like, here, build a blog in five minutes. Yeah. It's like, whoa, right? That's great. And I will never take away from the guy for absolutely building technically an amazing achievement.

Absolutely brilliant. That doesn't give you a free pass, unfortunately. And we're seeing that in many, many, many technical communities these days where you have a commonly referred to benevolent dictator for life being not really quite so benevolent.

And, but you see this in startups and things as well, right? You know, the people who start the thing are very rarely the right people to steward it in the long term, but some people hold on to these things for a very long time. Anyway, there's, of late, so DHH has always had some, this has always been, you know, slightly abrasive.

He's very opinionated, right? And in the technical terms, that's great. That's worked well. He's also very opinionated on many other issues and that has gone over less well with people and is becoming particularly pointed now in that, as we see with the rest of the world, you know, a hell of a lot of people vanishing down the Twitter rabbit hole of, you know, pivoting to the far right, which is fucking tragic to see.

Yeah. I agree. And especially for someone who, you know, in previous years expressed very different opinions. Oh yeah. Has pivoted. And, you know, to the point where, I mean, all you need to do is go read his blog.

If you read his blog, you will find, I think the most recent one that I've looked at in detail was where he was comparing homeless gypsies in, in Copenhagen to wolves disrupting farming that, but what you do with wolves is you put them down. Oh yeah. And you're like, this is dead with a hell of a lot.

Yeah. There's a lot of dehumanizing going on with the wolf stuff. So a lot of people are using Rails and are really uncomfortable with that kind of, that kind of stuff.

You know, he's, he's all about like, Oh, keep your politics out of work, keep it out of Basecamp, at which point a third of Basecamp left because like, well, we're humans. But he's, you know, he's happily spreading all these things and it's, you know, you can't, some people can separate those things, right? Some people can say, right, this person has horrible, abhorrent opinions, but technically it's fine.

This is the good stuff. I'm working on this technically. I can ignore that. Great. Fine. If that's you, you do you. Sure, sure. I'm not taking anything away. You're fine.

You've got an easy ride. I can't do that. I can't. There's a limit. There's a limit, right? And I can't look at, somebody in our, in our chat said it really nicely.

I just want to build a web app without feeling spiritually gross afterwards. Yeah, yeah. It's not a high requirement. No, right? I mean, I don't want to be, you know, get a face with a sense of depression every time I start my server.

Right. And that's not just me. There's a lot of that. And I know that a lot of people have left various things over the years because of stuff like this. Yeah, sure.

Not out of the blue by any means. So there was a call out last year to the Rails core team to just sort of say, look, this has gone far enough. Can we just, you know, we should sort of be reforming the way that this works and things like that.

But Rails core is so, I think, incredibly captured by its history, by him, by Shopify and so on, that that went nowhere. Yeah. I was also the one who kicked off an open letter last year to the Rails core team asking for that, which we got a couple of hundred and fifty signatures or Please come over here and we'll see what we can do because they're not going to do it.

So, you know, rather than just saying, oh, please somebody fix my problem for me, they're not going to then we do it. Like everybody said, nine months ago when we posted that thing, oh, why don't you just fork it? Fine.

But turns out, you know, just do that overnight because that would be stupid, that would just be me with a fork doing, that would get nowhere. The most important thing is to build, actually, what Rails needs, what any software project needs, is a stable community that anyone can get involved in that respects people and their input, no matter who they are, and doesn't carve off people into outgroups. So this is a fork that's based on the governance of Rails.

So the governance has to be the most important thing about the fork. But it turns out, you know, just do that overnight because that would be stupid because that would just be me with a fork doing, that would get nowhere. The most important thing is to build, actually, what Rails needs, what any software project needs, is a stable community that anyone can get involved in that respects people and their input, no matter who they are, and doesn't carve off people into outgroups.

So this is a fork that's based on the governance of Rails. So the governance has to be the most important thing about the fork. But, you know, it immediately feels good and freeing and like at least a positive attempt.

I have no idea if it will work. No, no, that's for later. This has just happened. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, many people have said, oh, that'll never work. I'm like, ah, you've never stopped me doing something stupid before.

Let me show you all my other failed projects. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I'm just reading a book about the creation of ARPANET. And the phone companies were like, no, no, packet switching, that can never work.

There's always billions of reasons why things won't work. Yeah, of course, of course. And the only way to do it is you build your way towards those things and you solve each one as it goes.

Something like agile. Something, something, something. I can't remember. Exactly, very strange. In fact, I'm fairly sure I remember somebody writing about that many years ago.

I don't know. Can't have been. But the impression I got from Mastodon was that you got a bit more like positive responses quicker than you had expected. It felt like I went to bed one evening and you had posted something like, we should try to get this going.

And the next morning it was like, yeah, it looks like we're doing this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, people have jumped on board. We've got, currently we're about 150 people in the Matrix.

A lot of whom are just observers and lurkers and that's fine. We'll put in opinions where necessary and things like that. We do now have active members across all sorts of areas of the project.

We've had a bunch of successful technical experiments happen. So we sort of started out, that kind of initial flush of thing was like, well, I think we've got a few people together in Matrix and none of whom I know. This is all just people who collected together based on that same desire.

That's the best. And we tried some things and it seemed to work. And I was like, well, I think this is possible. I think you can actually do this. Different people had got different bits of the solution and were like, if you stick that in there and then.

So what were the sort of biggest question marks to begin with? So obviously the most important thing about the fork is the governance side. But whether or not you can physically do the fork technically is like, you know, there's no point in having great governance if you actually can't do anything with it.

So the sort of early technical experiments were kind of what I think made me think, no, this is possible. And so actually all that stands in our way is organization and people. And that's always the hardest bit.

But that's OK. You know, if we've got a bunch of people, we can do that. Technically, there's no blocker. So it was working out things like the thing with Rails is it's a big framework with a lot of things and there are a lot of things that plug into it and expect it to be there.

So you can't just say, I mean, this kind of goes to the motivation of actually why. And there's a couple of other questions come back to that. But you can't just say, oh, here's a new thing with a new name and expect everything to work.

You have to, if you take something like Devise as an example, Devise is a big authentication framework, lots and lots of very mature code that does lots of really important stuff that I use Devise because I don't want to roll my own because what's the number one rule of web development? Right. Don't roll your own security.

Yeah. So how do we build a fork that obviously you can fork a repository, you can change the names. Fine. Yeah, sure. That's fine. But, you know, if it breaks every time you try and use something else with it, what's the point?

It has to be able to work with all the existing Rails stuff out there. And so working out how to fool the application into still pretending to be Rails in terms of all the naming and things like that. Devise will have a dependency in it on, I don't know if it depends on Rails as a whole or whether it's just on rail ties and some of the components, but it depends on things that are part of that system.

So you have to be able to tell the package manager, no, it's OK. Rails is here, even though we haven't got the Rails gem installed. You have to be able to convince things that it can solve those dependencies.

And then you have to be able to do that on the Ruby side as well, on the actual code, you know, when things say, you know, many, all the things that sort of plug into it will have a rail tie, which is like the sort of initializer for a gem that works with Rails. And that will have, you know, things in the Rails namespace and stuff like that. So you have to have sort of aliases for those namespaces and so on so that those can continue to work.

And a couple of experiments, somebody else worked out the gem aliasing approach and worked that out a few months ago, actually, when we did the open letter as a kind of, hey, look, this is possible. So we sort of stuck that together with some stuff around, yeah, aliasing the namespaces and things like that and tried it out and it worked. And we've taken a few different approaches to sort of solving this technically.

We've done it. There's a kind of a big top down kind of like, what if we rename everything? Does it still work? And there's a sort of a just change a little bit and we'll see if that can be made to work in another application.

And at one point, I'm not the only one who's done this, but there are in the root of all of my problems over the years, I stood for election a couple of times, which was very much the same kind of, somebody should do something. Damn it. I needed again, didn't I?

But yeah. Now I suddenly understand why there's a repo for a website, but no actual website. It makes a lot of sense now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, that's it. Well, there is a, I think there's a really big PR open on it with like building, building bridge stands.

So there is an early sort of framework of things, but this is all, because this is all volunteer staff and nobody's doing this full time. Everybody's doing this very part time. I am really racing against the clock a little bit on, on how quickly I need it to be sort of have enough people to sort of be sustaining that community because I can't, I've got to get back to stuff.

Right. I'm much rather not be doing this. Right. And one of the things I've said in the community is I do not, I am not a BDFL. I do not want to be the head of this project.

I'll just be a guy in the development chat. Right. That's fine. That's where, that's my place. Yeah. I'm peculiar. I don't know. Useful idiot or something. I don't know.

But we're getting the community to a point where it runs itself and people with more experience than me on various things can take bits of it on. Yeah. It's the dream.

Yeah. So apart from a solid name, what's, what else is most needed right now? So the thing is, it's interesting putting together. So I've, I've been building this, this project manifold for a few years and actually that comes into why I need this to happen, which we should, we should come back to.

But that's built very organically. At the moment, I'm building it. I'm sort of the central point of that community. see people help each other out in the support channels, things like that, but it's built very organically.

This is very different. This is trying to bootstrap something that is big and serious quickly. And I fully admit, I don't know what I'm doing, but that means we immediately have to think about what's proper governance process set up from the beginning.

How do we think about our communications? How do we think about our writing and our design and all these things? Because anyone coming from Rails is going to have expectations and we've got to do our best to deliver those.

We have to think about what is a proper, proper security process, because this thing will have, you know, how do we deal with the CVs that come in? There was one in Rails last week. We have to be able to react to that, so we need a proper security process, not just me relying on GitHub vulnerability reports and hoping it has to be done properly.

So, you know, high quality design, not just me with Bootstrap, like I've done with everything else. So, it's sort of even working out what those sections are has been interesting. But that means there is a huge amount of places that people can get involved, whatever your expertise is in the open source world.

Yeah. We need it. We need designers, writers, operations people. We need security specialists. We need, you know, governments experts. We need organizers. We need project managers.

I mean, we need all of those things so that all of us can do a little bit. Yeah, exactly. And actually make something that works. So, there is, I mean, it is very trite to say, oh, yes, it's an open source project.

Whatever it is you could do, we need it. Right. Absolutely true in this case. Yeah, yeah. I've said that on my own project and it's like if somebody turned up with this thing, I'd have no idea what to do with them.

But in this case, it's all, you know, everything. And even just telling people about it and writing about it and talking about why it's necessary. Yeah. I think is all important.

Yeah. So, yes, if anybody fancies getting involved, please do. Yeah. There will be links in the show notes. Exactly. That's not even my line. Exactly. Can never repeat it too much.

And the Matrix service is the main place at the moment, yeah? Yeah, Matrix is my place. Somebody immediately came back to me and said, well, I think this is a good idea, but don't do it on Matrix.

Do it on Discord. I'm like, well... Classic. And I get it. Sure. I totally do. I mean, I'm on Discord for many things. It doesn't tend to be the healthiest place.

But also, if you're trying to build something that's pushing back against the creeping Silicon Valley techno...ism. Yes. All of that. Yeah. Maybe we should take a little step out of our comfort zones and be okay with using things that are open and controlled by the people who run them and things like that.

Yeah, exactly. Obviously, that's easier for me to say because I've been using Matrix now for years. Still hard to love. But I will absolutely agree with people who say, oh, God, it's awkward and it's got lots of sharp edges.

Yes, it does. Yeah, there's a good point to it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I've made many weird technical decisions because of philosophical stances. And to be honest, that's what this project is about.

Exactly. That's just another one for the pile. Yeah, yeah, but it makes so much sense in the context because the whole point is doing something in more of a right way.

And then, of course, a bunch of other stuff comes with it. Because if you don't do that, it's like, oh, we're on Slack. Yeah, sure. I mean, ignoring, ignoring. Even ignoring all of that.

Look at hate Discord for the programming community. It keeps trying to sell me level ups and gamertags on it. But no, just get all this. You know, the huge problem is the centralization of all these communities into one system and Discord is just a related thing.

So I'm an old school internet person. I like open standards and using them. Yeah, I sometimes think that it's not so much me getting old. It's just all the big companies doing this, like the same things enough times that it becomes so obvious.

Like me being on Mastodon. Why didn't I move to BlueSky? Yeah, because BlueSky is going to do the same thing that Twitter did in some form. It won't have SolidQ, which is a background queuing system.

It will leave a bunch of that stuff out. So we're starting with the minimal set because for one thing, the minimal set is stable. It has been stable for a long time since like Rails 6.

Really, that core is finished. Yeah. Not finished in the sense that there's no work to do on it ever again. You know, there's always maintenance, there's always security, there's new versions of Ruby, etc.

But that is stable. And feature complete. A lot of the newer stuff is, I mean, much less used, I imagine. I don't know the entire Rails community. I'm just a guy, but I know that I've not used any of the, you know, action text, action mailbox, uh, some of these other things that are in there, but the nice thing is because of the whole lazy thing, you can still use those.

They still work. When I said we could get lazy, the minimal lazy thing that I managed to get working was just rail ties. It's still using all of the other underlying gems, the action pack, active record, all of that stuff was unfurled.

So we proved that you can have this kind of hybrid system. So yeah, if you still want to use um action text and active storage and things like that, fine, you go for it. Great.

Those, those will still work. And we'll be, we'll be looking after the core. Yeah. And there are still many, many questions in that as well. Like where does that go in the future?

Do we, does this evolve in some ways? Do we try and come up with something to fix the disaster of the asset pipeline system that I don't really know what happened, but it felt like Rails seven just went, ah, sod it. Do what you like.

Table flip. It took all of its, all of its convention over configuration thing and just went, what? That's, that's a move. Solve these articles. I might be just recovering.

I've really now got it to a point where I'm happy with it years and years later. And I think that's something a lot of people, you know, the one that, there's been quite a lot of discussion about that and it's like, maybe sometime, but it's going to be damn right, right? So yeah, I think, yeah, we'll see.

We'll see. Yeah. But there's, there's a lot of things that are newer technologies, newer approaches, and there may be room to, to look at those or to make them work well with it in a way that, work well.

I mean, another area is things like the, um, internationalization. Rails has its own method for internationalization. There are plenty of standard methods out there that are really nicely supported by lots of things.

Um, maybe that'll come into a cap. But that's down the line. That's a long time down the line. For now, we are really minimal scope, keeping it really tight and we'll see where we go.

I won't pretend to know what the future holds. For a start, because I won't be the one deciding it. So exactly. Exactly. Join the matrix server. I'll be a little voice in, yeah, going.

That's the exact sound. That's, that's what I want my role on the project to become. That's doesn't actually even need any words. Just, just easily ignored in the corner.

Yeah. That's the thing. I, you know, this whole thing has started because I want it to exist, not because I want to do it. If you know what I mean. Yeah, exactly.

You know, there's plenty of interesting stuff to do, but yeah, sure, sure. There always is, right. You know, I look at my office. Yeah. It's full of too many interesting things to do that I can't focus.

Yeah. I almost started the side conversation about some of the stuff in the background. Oh, it wouldn't be the first podcast to do so. You can't even see equipment going in the corner.

Oh, exactly. I don't know if it's good or bad that people don't see that they won't be able to see the image, but they'll have to use their imagination. Oh, yeah, of course.

Yeah. I forgot. Yeah. No camera. Oh, well, you'll have to, yeah, find, find the other podcasts with me on if you want to see the absolute dreck that is my office.

Exactly. Yeah. So, uh, what, what you're trying to focus on otherwise is manifold, right? Yeah, that's what I'm supposed to be doing. Yeah. And building manifold on top of this.

Yeah. Well, this, this, there's a couple of things now, actually. So I just had another grant from come through from, uh, NGO zero again for a slightly different, a different thing.

So manifold is a self-hosted tool for 3d printing, uh, enthusiasts, I suppose. So it's for organizing a big trove of 3d print models. I found myself with a massive folder of stuff and I didn't know what anything was.

Uh, I couldn't find anything. So I made a web app because as previously discussed, I am bad at self-control. And good at web apps. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I know that.

Yeah. And that's grown now to be a self-hosted, uh, management tool, but also publishing platform. So if you are into 3d printing, you'll know things like thingiverse and many of the other hosting sites.

Manifold lets you run your own, one of those alongside your, so you can publish public stuff alongside your private organizational stuff. And it also federates. So it's part of the Fediverse, uh, federates with activity pub between different instances.

So, uh, you can have an account on your own personal instance, like I have one running in the corner of the office there, and you can follow creators or models or things like that on other servers and automatically it will communicate between them just like things like Mastodon and other fediverse services. And in fact, you can follow those things from Mastodon. Uh, so if you follow a manifold creator, you will see a message in your Mastodon feed whenever new models are created, things like that.

They're a, the way that activity pub stuff works is there is a rails engine built into manifold, which was until a couple of weeks ago on a very coincidental day was named federails. And now it's called FediPub. But that does all of that.

Um, then this is why I say like, you know, I, I need to carry on working on the railway system for a start. I've got a whole load of work to do in it now. Yeah. So that does all of that activity pub federation.

And, um, I've now got a bunch of work to do to sort of round that out to improve the documentation and things like that. So that's another aspect of what I'm doing. But again, it's all very rails based.

It's in that world of things. One of the things I do want to do as part of that workflow is, is make it usable elsewhere, is use it as a way to explore how do we make, uh, when I've got a, I've got a, a rails engine that has controllers and it has all of this stuff that operates in the rails paradigm. How do I make that as much of that as possible usable without rails?

How do I make it work at the rack level or something else so that it can go into Hanami or things like that? So that's going to be, uh, really, that's going to be a part of this as well. Or if, you know, if there's bits of it that can't having make sure that there is a Ruby core that then actually you can have adapters into the different frameworks or something like that.

So that will all feed into this as well, as you really know. So I've got a few things on the go that are somewhat related, but yeah, but the, but the real thing is, is not, uh, the real thing and maintenance on things is not paying the bills. It's time, time is limited.

So building that, building that community is really important. Yeah. So, so how does that work with the grants and stuff like that? You, you apply for a grant to do some specific things or?

Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I, I'd recommend to anybody who's working in open source is look at a nlnet.nl, uh, who are the organization that are the primary organizers of this NGI zero, um, project.

The way it works is they get a whole load of money from the European union, um, horizon, uh, research framework stuff is big and complicated and involves lots and lots of reports and plans and risk assessments and things like that. And they do all of that and then they, they have a very simple web form that developers can understand, uh, that we can fill in and go, I want to do this thing. And then you go through a bit of a process.

It's a very iterative sort of feedback thing. You fill in the form, a few months later, they'll get in touch and say, Oh, okay. Yes. We've put you through the second round.

Here's a few questions. And then you get through that and, uh, it's very, very developer friendly. Oh, cool. And it's grant first grant is, can be up to 50,000 euro.

But uh, yeah, it's, it's focused on R and D type stuff. Um, I think they've just had to tweak it a bit. So it is now also focused on, uh, what they're calling sort of open internet stack.

That was a big push in the EU sort of around digital sovereignty, digital, uh, you know, internet sovereignty, things like that. So it's focused more on that now. So some of the things that it used to be able to fund are going to be a little bit more difficult to get in, but if you're building stuff that is open source, that is to do with the internet and the web and things like that, it's well worth a look.

They're wonderful people. And it comes with a whole bunch of, um, of services as well. So the other partners and consortium are people like a radically open security, um, uh, pentesting security firm, which means that they will No, it's been great.

It's been great. Is there anything you want to throw in at the end? Anything we missed? I feel like we covered a lot of ground. Yeah. Look in the show notes. Exactly.

With this project at the moment, it's like, I don't have a website to send you to. I don't have anything. We have an emergent community, and it's going to be hard and it's going to be difficult.

And it may well not work. At least we'll have tried. Yeah. And that's the best I can, you know, if I can look back and go, I mean, like everything I've done, you know, working in carbon calculation and climate change stuff 15 years ago.

Oh, well. At least I tried. Yeah, exactly. That was the thing, you know, we were. Yeah, this is worth trying. We weren't ahead of our time. The rest of the world is way behind us.

But, you know, we tried. I can, I can look back on that and I can look back on this and say, that was the right thing to do. It didn't work and whatever. Yeah, but maybe it would work.

Sometimes things do. Exactly. Join us. The only thing that will make it work is people. So if people want to get involved and help us build a slightly less tech bro future, then, yeah, you know where to find us.

Join Matrix. Exactly. Thank you so much, James. This was great. Yeah, a real pleasure. Thank you for having me. Big thanks for listening to Kodsnack. If you want to support us, leave a review in your podcast player of choice or just tell someone who might like the podcast about an episode.

And don't forget, you can come hang out in our Slack channel. A link is in the sidebar, right on our website at kodesnack.se. Once again, big thanks for listening.

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